Beyond the Darkness
An Interview with Poet Xue Di
Conducted by Meadow Dibble-Dieng and Heidi Brevik.

Xue Di is a poet and a fellow of Brown University’s "Freedom to Write" program, established through the Department of Creative Writing after the Tian’anmen Square demonstrations of 1989 in which he took part. Of the three writers who benefited from this program, Xue Di is alone in having made Providence his permanent home. Working part-time in the Department of English, he continues to write poetry in Chinese and to publish in translation. Having lived for thirty-three years in Beijing - one of the world’s largest cities - Xue Di enjoys the small-town feel of Providence, where he has made many friends, as well as the proximity to nature, which serves as a source of inspiration for his poetry.

MDD: Your resume is very impressive, you seem very active and solicited. How do you perceive your career in the US as being different than it would have been had you stayed in China?

XD: If I had remained in China, I would probably be in prison now. That’s the number one reason I am in this country. Also, in China, one is not allowed to give individual readings, especially contemporary poets and artists. China tends to go against the contemporary arts because they speak out more than the traditional forms of expression. Traditional artists are quieter, more or less following the Party’s regulations. The contemporary artist has more of a tendency to rebel.

MDD: Then how do the contemporary writers share their poetry?

XD: Today, the critical circumstances are looser. In the past, the public couldn’t produce their own magazines, they only had access to governmental publications. Some of the editors had a sympathy for the contemporary arts and would selectively publish new work. But the critical situation came and everything vanished, it was banished. The editors who published any contemporary work would get laid off or fired. Certain artists could get in real trouble. When the political strings are tight, everything goes underground. Back fifteen or twenty years ago, the government was very much in control of our contemporary arts. The only way we could communicate was to have a private poetry reading or a gathering in a person’s house. Get together, go out, go to the parks, to quiet places. I used to live alone, so my place was one of the sites where people would gather. The artists came to give readings or just to have a good time, to drink, chat, fight, whatever.

MDD: Do you miss that?

XD: I miss that kind of thing very, very much. To think about it now, life was kind of crazy, it was chaos, but I loved that kind of free living and a feeling that so many people have the same desire and different personalities. We might be opposites in art, but in friendship we really share our writing. You can do anything, say "I hate you, you are a bad person, you’re an asshole" - you can feel free to say it. In this country, whoa! You can’t always do that. You should respect your people, but there’s some kind of an intimate connection. That’s something that I really miss. The connection.

MDD: Have you found anything similar here?

XD: Nothing similar, really. That is the one thing about the culture, it is so different. In mainland China, we do not have our own space, we do not have privacy, which is bad. Oriental cultures focus on family, the group, that is the way government encourages people to think because it is in the benefit of the government to control people. It is much easier to control groups than to control each individual. Part of that is our culture and part is a strategy of the Communist party. That was the way we grew up. But here, this culture encourages privacy. You have to have your privacy, your space. In Asian countries when you talk with someone you really get close, physically. But in this country, if someone gets too close to you, you will back up. If they pat you on the back you will think "ooh, that’s weird". All the small, subtle cultural details are different. It is such an open society, so when people respect the privacy of others they also want their own privacy. Another big difference is for example at a reading. Say we are good friends and we know we are really good friends (some highly-respected American poets are my friends). I will read a poem and ask what my friends think, and they say "oh, good, that’s nice." And that’s it. They say, "oh this is very interesting" and you ask "what about it interests you?" and they back off, nothing more. It doesn’t get detailed, or personal. This is one thing that makes me feel quite uncomfortable. In China we really don’t have this sort of problem, we’ll say "this is a damn bad poem!" and will start to argue or whatever. I love that kind of thing! It’s so honest and so free.

MDD: You have mentioned in the past that formerly when you wrote poetry, you liked to express a lot of emotion - violent emotion, love... And now that you are in the US, you seem to be tending more towards repressing this emotion and toning it down to the very minimum. It is interesting that, writing under an oppressive regime, you felt the need to express emotion, and writing under a democratic regime, the need to repress emotion. But you are saying that you and your friends shared a great space for expression, whereas here in the States, in reality, you don’t find that. People tend to repress their emotions here.

XD: I am not sure that it is specifically about repressing emotion. I think it is something else. In China, other people care enough about you to enter in. Here, I don’t know if it’s getting too personal or just that they don’t want to hurt you because they don’t want to be hurt. It really bothers me a lot, but I think that it is a cultural thing. Something about the way to live, between private and public life; it is different in the two countries. It seems to be less about repression than some kind of discipline. It does not come from emotions but from rational thought. The reason I said my writing has changed (see "Releasing: Light and Darkness", published in Arts & Letters, No. 4, Fall 2000) is due to the fact that then there was so much emotion because our lives were so close, there were so many things that we were angry about. We had a very strong, unbeatable opponent. Like a boxer, you cannot beat that person up. The only thing you can do is to stand up, but you will spend all your life trying to punch, punch, punch. There is always something defined for you, right in front of you, that you are going to fight. You don’t have to think anything through, just fight, fight, fight. Because you need to get out. But in this country, there is no particular opponent. Everything is so free, so open. You have all the options. You choose. You choose to speak out, you choose to not speak out. No one forces you, no one tells you that you can’t do this, you have to do this. Everything is only your choice. There are no defined opponents. When I came to this country I felt lost. I was so used to fighting and when I came here I realized that there was nothing to fight against. Of course, you have to fight to earn money, but it was nothing like in China. So there was a really big gap. I was sinking in a big hole and couldn’t get out. Gradually I learned to make an effort to adapt. The opponent is still right there. It still exists, but the opponent is myself. I realized that if I could think of myself as the opponent then my life could change, as well as my writing. I really have more distance in my life. In China I used to say that my life was miserable because I was under the Communist Party’s rule; that was true, but how much was attributable to the society, and how much was within ourselves? No one really looked too deep, it was easy to complain, to make that claim.

MDD: In a sense you have transposed the opponent; the opponent was an exterior, oppressive force and now you say that the opponent is in you... Do you feel that you need an opponent to write poetry?

XD: You need a motivation. You have to have a desire. What is the motivation? What is the desire? You cannot say "I’m sitting here, I am so peaceful" and that is what you write. You always have to have some sort of underlying anxiety, or strong appreciation for something to make you feel "I want to write, I want to express myself". As a writer, we always have something in our lives or mind that is pushing us to move on, not just the desire to write. There must be something behind, beneath. Pushing things out. I always think that life is a battle but in different kinds of ways, on different levels. The lowest level is the physical: violence, battle. Then the battle becomes increasingly spiritual. But there is always something you are working with, or battling with.

MDD: So why this desire now to limit the emotion expressed?

XD: Because emotion is power, but it’s also beauty, which is a power in itself. I find that emotion, when you are writing or practicing an art, has a certain limitation. Emotion can touch people, but it’s like after a punch you will feel pain and only be left with the memory of that pain. Now, if I really control my emotion, I can go to a deeper stage, a more profound reality, to bring something out of my poetry. These things, compared with the emotion, create an impact. That impact is like you are punching but you are using a soft cloth wrapped around your fist. You receive a soft punch and don’t feel very much pain, but after a few days you might find that there is an internal injury. It’s the same kind of principle. I’m not trying to take out the emotion, it is just that the writing is different. There is not so much trouble and anxiety in my life so I can quiet myself down to listen to myself more, I am not so restless or anxious. There is a voice that comes from a deeper state, combined with raw realities. And that’s what I feel. I think that this kind of writing has much more power than just shouting out. On the one hand, I am aware of this, so I am pursuing it. Another aspect is that I am in this stage. As my life has changed, so has my way of writing. People say of writers, "Oh, he writes the same year after year" or they say "she’s changing". You cannot say, "OK, I’m going to change my writing." You can try a different writing style, but it probably will come out just a piece of junk, like an experimental piece. The way the writing has changed, your life has changed. You have developed internally and expanded mentally. So when you are really developed as a person, as a human being you are developed, you are going from one level to another level, your writing of course will have changed.

HB: I was reading some of your poems and was particularly struck by the series that you did in reaction to Van Gogh’s paintings. I was wondering if you might comment on that. You refer a lot to the artist, and it’s interesting to me that you chose an artist who is not a poet to inspire you.

XD: The reason I wrote that cycle of poems entitled Flames is because Vincent Van Gogh’s work, even before it was widely accepted and sold for great sums of money, was very, very popular in China, especially among the younger generation. Van Gogh started to paint when he was 35. He had a depression, he was crazy, he had a strong desire for solitude, and art, and love and nature. And his painting was full of this strong desire and twisting force. Our young generation in China was very familiar with that kind of emotion and feeling. We felt we were so closed, we were depressed, we couldn’t be the way we wanted to be. So we had a sort of understanding of the craziness of Van Gogh, the desperation. That’s why we love his paintings. Especially me. I had a very difficult childhood. My parents divorced when I was six years old, I couldn’t follow either of them so I had to live alone. In the meantime there was the Cultural Revolution, and the violence. So, all that put together, I was probably more crazy than all my friends, other poets and painters about his work. I also feel that I’m reborn, I probably feel that I share Van Gogh’s soul, or whatever. I feel I have such a good understanding of him. I used to paint when I was in China - landscapes, oil painting. Also my poems are largely images from nature. I have a strong connection to nature. Because of my situation, I didn’t really appreciate the time I spent with people because I didn’t get any support or love from them. But I feel so much comfort and encouragement and love from nature. Nature always accepts you. I could talk to a tree, a river, a stream, feel love. That’s why I feel a strong connection to Van Gogh and wrote that cycle of poems. I wrote 32 of those poems, published 16 and destroyed the other half because they didn’t come out as good. It’s our feelings, not a description of Van Gogh’s paintings.

MDD: When did you come into contact with nature if you grew up in Beijing, what was your first experience with nature?

XD: My first experience with nature, I believe it was from my previous life. I believe that was my beginning. That is an excellent question. Growing up in Beijing I didn’t really have any contact with nature, people were everywhere. But the nature was right there in my heart. I think my internal experience must be from a previous life. Neither of my parents was a traveler, they had no interest in nature. I believe people have many lives, a soul selects a body to grow in. I just love nature, it’s just always been a part of my life.

MDD: You were recently in China, is that right?

XD: Not recently. It was three years ago. I’m trying to go back this summer if I don’t have any big events. I have a couple events coming. Every summer I want to go back but I always feel that I can’t because there is always an event. I’m very homesick now. Sometimes you are so sick, you know you’re sick, so you have to lay down, take a pill. This is a time when I feel I’m homesick so much I really have to go back.

MDD: What is your relationship like with the literary community in China? Do they follow your career here in the States? Do they read your works?

XD: Once in a while I send some poems back to China. It’s not like poems of exile. These poems cannot be published in China, I do not even bother to send them to my friends who are editors, they might have problems. Usually, I send poems about nature, love poems. Not poems with a critical tendency. So I get some work published in China. Also, once in a while they say they are going to publish all of your work, then two months later you learn that the publishers are closed. Now there is another one who is working on my anthology, but it’s an unpredictable situation. It’s luck. There is such a short time, a friend is in a position, you are right there, you could probably get work published but then your friend will get bad luck later. Basically, my friends and colleagues are not able to follow my writing. Most of my work is published in magazines in the US and Hong Kong. But when they do have a chance to follow it they like it, more and more. Because it is really different from my old writing.

HB: In the States, do you have a publishing project that you are working on right now?

XD: Yes, I am working with a couple of different chapbooks, and also another full-length book. That was my first. Flames was a chapbook. I have a number of poems in Chinese, but the translation process takes time.

HB: What about "Parallel Deep"?

XD: I finished the book in Chinese, but the translation is taking time. I am very careful about who translates my work because, as a poet, if the translation is really bad my career could be affected in this country.

MDD: Do you think it has changed the way you write or conceive of poems in any way, knowing that they are going to be translated, or knowing that your first audience now is the American public?

XD: There are two parts to that. People often ask when you write do you consider the audience. When I write, I never think about the audience. I am my own reader, I write for myself. When I finish, it needs to be published, but I never think about how to change it for the public. That’s my experience. I am not going to change myself. I am not going to adapt my experience for the readers. But the skills, the technology is different, what is the best way to allow a reader follow your internal bridge to get into your work. That is something you can consider. But it is not working to suit them, it is working to suit the poetry, helping them to connect to the poetry. The second part of the question is about translation. If I am able to write something in English now, if I am thinking that I am writing for an American audience, it probably would be a big difference. Because I understand the humor and the performance and also the importance of entertainment in this culture. This is a culture of entertainment. You see the movie stars, talk show hosts, Jay Leno, they entertain people so well. If I was born in this country and writing, the writing could be very different because of the culture. If I am thinking about the translation, I probably would add a little more entertainment, more humor. But I am not going in that direction. To answer your question, that could be a possibility for one poem or a collection of poems, but probably I am never going to go there. Because my poetry is so severe and serious.

MDD: I read a little about Gao Xingjian, the Nobel laureate. What do you think of his stance on the role of literature, conveyed in the speech that he gave before the general assembly when he received the Nobel Prize? Contrary to Sartre and this whole idea of commitment in literature, his view is that a true writer is not a spokesperson, not a representative of his people, and that literature should have no relationship to ideology. Do you feel that you need to speak for the people or address issues that are important in Chinese society?

XD: I think this is actually a very complicated issue. Every writer looks at it a different way and will give you a different answer. I understand where his response came from, because our writing is so much entangled in the politics - bad politics, adapted to communist theory - so his basic stance is that he will not entangle his writing in the politics. He is very much into the technique and the skill. It is pure human condition. I understand his view but I am not really of the same opinion. I am from China, I am currently living in a free country; my people are still suffering and are facing real danger. They can’t speak out. I think I have a duty to tell the world what is happening in my country through my writing, not through shouting. I feel like I am obligated to speak. As a poet you could be living in your own world, writing about clouds, rivers, flowers. But I think I am more than that. I feel a poet should speak out for the people behind him. Through the poetry you really carry the culture, I am with my people though my particular style of writing.

MDD: Xingjian was condemned by the Association of Chinese Writers (governmental) who did not approve of something he said in his acceptance speech - in which he was very political, by the way - discussing the repression of writers who have chosen to speak. This Association claimed that writers in China have "enough freedom".

XD: I usually say that, as a writer you have the freedom to write, in your mind. But the more public you are, the less freedom you have. So it is absolutely not true. If you want to write for your conscience, speak out the truth, even to pursue your individual and unique writing style it will not be allowed, because government cannot understand it, they are going to construe it as threatening.

MDD: Can anything positive come out of such a situation? In one of your interviews you mentioned that it is the suffering you experienced as a child that made you a poet. Do you think that an oppressive social situation can produce a very creative and dynamic underworld of cultural expression? Or will oppression always kill such projects?

XD: It is always floating underground. Under looser control I think it could emerge, like a volcano or an earthquake and spread. The difference with nature is that when it comes out it could continue to flow. But the government feels a strong need to control and to oppress. The government would shut down the volcano. The situation will continue to be like this until the critical circumstances have changed in mainland China. At that point the fire will no longer be a fire, but spring water. It is hard to predict when and how this might happen.

MDD: Do you think the other artists like you will go through a sort of a dark period where, because there is no longer this oppressive force, they will have to find a new voice?

XD: I hope they will be able to go through this. Many Chinese writers living abroad have stopped writing. The one reason is because language is the way we make a living, the way we live, and when you come to a foreign country language becomes your weakness. It’s not like a painter who could continue to paint, or a musician. If I cannot get translations, my work would go nowhere here. That is why I say I hope they will go through this transition and come out writing. It’s not just because of the difference of living circumstances, as an artist you go through a deeper stage of alienation.

MDD: Do you have contact with other Chinese living in the US? Or with Chinese Americans?

XD: I have a couple writer friends. But I don’t have a particular connection with either Chinese Americans or even the Chinese student community here at Brown. Just because it is so different. Most Chinese students here are involved in science, not in the humanities. Also, I am kind of a solitary person, I don’t maintain a lot of contact with people. I am very much focused on what I am doing. If I feel homesick I might watch a Chinese movie. If there are events I will go.

MDD: How do you feel about the word "exile" - do you consider yourself to be in exile?

XD: I think exile is your first condition here. You have no choice. But for me now, if I chose to go back to China I think I would be allowed to go back, but I wouldn’t be allowed to be active politically, or to be truly free. I don’t think I am really exiled. This is the lifestyle I choose to live in this country. It is very important that I have the freedom to write, to live without fear. That is the most important reason I choose to live in this country. There is this internal emotional loss and pain, for being here and not there, but I cannot call myself exiled, not from my point of view. I choose to be here, to be alone, to feel solitude and to be cut-off from my people.

MDD: Do your friends and family and colleagues who are in China understand your choice?

XD: I’m not sure how much Chinese people understand that, because they have no choice. The theory that one is responsible for their own actions, you have to live in a free country to understand this. My parents understand emotionally. My friends don’t bother to figure out whether I’m here because I choose to be or because I can’t go back. Unfortunately they don’t have the chance to go through this internal understanding of the question of choice.

MDD: Do you produce more now than you did in China?

XD: It’s hard to say. When you’re young, you tend to write a lot. I may write less than in China. I am still impulsive, but life is busy here. I used to cause a lot of accidents because I would be riding on my bike and would get an idea and would have to write it down immediately, while riding. But here, you are older, your thoughts are more skewed. In China, you have no choice but you do have a lot of free time.

MDD: Who are your favorite authors?

XD: My favorite writers are W.B. Yeats. Alexander Pushkin, a Russian writer - it is because of his poems that I began to write poetry. And Charles Baudelaire. I love a lot of French poets. But Baudelaire affected me a great deal, because he was very dark. Pushkin presents so much beauty and love, this was very important during my childhood. But when I began to grow up and begin to write, feeling the anger and pressure, Baudelaire made more sense to me. Now it seems too dark, there is nothing beyond the darkness. And humans need light. If you don’t go to the bottom of darkness then you never can reach the center of light. If you remain in the darkness you might be very powerful, but you cannot be a world-class poet. You hold a light to shine, to help people out of darkness. That is how my writing has changed.